YvyBarney
- 22 May 2005
What does this say? It says that: -I do not have the time to dedicate to a new business -MK requires more investment than I can afford right now -there are only so many EFFECTIVE ways to work MK part-time
I think right now I am convinced to keep my contract and hope for a time in the distant future when I can return. It IS a good opportunity, and it is nice to know that I can fall back on it whenever and however I want when the time comes.
As to the money I have not made: -I'm annoyed -I feel somewhat deceived -I blame my busy schedule and higher priorities
I cannot say to anyone that I was forced to do anything. People who say they were forced to do something are limited to war-time captives not free individuals who want to make some extra money and take a risk at a business venture. At no time have I spent an unexpected amount of money, with the exception of meeting fees (grrr), that I felt was a hinderance to my wallet. All business owners and all professionals invest some money into workshops and meetings to learn more about their field and network with peers. This is what MK meetings are. If you are with a director who uses YOUR time to promise you diamond rings and tell you her woes about how SHE is not making enough money off of you then, you need to get adopted by a better director. OR...you just do it on your own and NOT go to meetings. You don't have to, no where does it say this! It's just urged so that you feel more spirited and so that you can get ideas.
I will miss the ladies until I decide to go back. I will be thankful that I no longer have to feel like a lazy bum because I am not selling. I will make money elsewhere.
If it is not for you at all or at this time, you don't have to knock the company since it works for MANY other women. That is a fact, not an opinion. People don't go around saying they make a living and making cadillacs out of paper. They do earn these things, and they can lose them, too, which is why some become money crazed and less personable as time goes on--understandable although not right.
You cannot have this completely grim outlook on an ENTIRE company and all of the people in it simply because you want to say it is an MLM (not quite in its strictest sense) and that it is a scam(how, because you didn't read?). It all boils down to being fair about what you say and how you think, not one-sided and extremist. You would not be right if you say always or never at any point in time.
YvyBarney - 22 May 2005
> I cannot say to anyone that I was forced to do anything.
I should hope not! Even con men don't typically force people into anything. They trick people into thinking an opportunity is better than it is by pretending to be their friend and lying to them. Then they get more money out of them because they want so badly to believe they didn't throw away their original investment. Then they get people not to turn them either by guilting them, or making them feel too embarrased to admit what they were stupid enough to do.
I wasn't forced into anything I did in Mary Kay. But my experience wasn't terribly different from the con job I described above. It took almost two years before I was willing to admit to anyone what a huge mistake a stupidly made. Even then, I only did it out of a hope I could help keep others from making the same mistake.
> All business owners and all professionals invest some money into
> workshops and meetings to learn more about their field and network
> with peers.
Many professionals work for companies, and typically the companies foot the bill for these kind of events. And owners of real businesses have a much greater chance of success than do contractors for MLM's.
> ...you need to get adopted by a better director.
Easier said than done. In the first place, there are an awful lot of directors who operate in questionably scrupulous ways, so even if you do that, will the next one be any better? You only can get adopted if your director does not offer training in your area. And officially changing directors is highly discouraged.
> People don't go around saying they make a living...
Well, my sales director certainly pretended to be doing better than she was. How many is MANY? When I was in Mary Kay, I didn't know anyone who actually had one of the cars. I lived in an area that had hundreds of Mary Kay consultants, and while I was in MK, I kept an eye out for those cars. I saw maybe 3 total, in a year of running into all kinds of people I'd had no idea were involved with Mary Kay. It's impossible to know how many people actually make a living at Mary Kay because we don't have access to any records about it. And we know they're taught to "fake it till [they] make it", so who knows how many of those who appear to be doing well really are?
> You would not be right if you say always or never at any point in time.
Did anyone say "always" or "never"? Hmm... well you almost did when you claimed that "All business owners and all professionals invest some money into workships and meetings..." I know I have not claimed that Mary Kay can never work, simply that it doesn't work for most people. I haven't claimed that all sales directors use unscrupulous tactics. Only that some do, and it's important to know how to recognize them, and not be taken in by them.
RachelSuddeth - 24 May 2005
Hi Rachel,
I have to say that you made some good points, but nothing that differs from what I said. I think my main issue here is that people have a problem with positive comments about MK as if there is NO ONE in the world (a never) who has benefited from the company. As to directors and not being able to get adopted unless geography plays a role, not true, and if they imply that to you, so that you remain under their influence, then, they are nasty people, but I have not encountered that. So, I would not support that type of statement. I understand that since you have had bad experiences with MK it makes sense to you to not support positive experiences, but it gets on my nerves when people constantly question these women as if they are all (an always) lying. That is extremely unfair.
I know that not everyone can be a millionaire, but not everyone can be a CEO, or the president, or principal, or owner--that is why THAT takes work and time, plenty of it. This is what I don't understand about people who get upset with the odds of "making it" in MK. What are the odds of making it anywhere? You may get by as a writer, but you may not become a best-seller. You may be a practicing doctor but never leave an affiliation to a clinic. You may freelance as a lawyer and never make partner. I mean, the idea that everyone who represents MK is supposed to become a director is silly. Of course, the recruiter is going to tell you YOU CAN DO THIS IF YOU DO xy and z, that is a possibility after all. It's not a $100 investment that is supposed to turn into an automatic 1 year turnover into national director. How does this seems logical to people? This is where the always and nevers are wrong, because you're judging an entire company based on your disappointment, either due to one or two (tops) consultants/directors behaviors or your own failings in being a sales person.
As to language in the company about owning your own company and getting a car. That is called marketing. I work in public relations, and let me tell you that there is not successful business in this world, especiaily in this country, that does not use language to manipulate potential clients. It is how money is made. I am not saying it is great to be misleading, but sometimes you have to hide some facts while highlighting others in order to draw people in with the highlights of your benefits. Why would you recruit someone and tell them you have to pay for meetings and make $200 inventory purchases every month? Who would do that? Does the bank tell you how many hideen fees they have in their "free" checking? Do discount Broadway tickets warn you that they will place you on an endless mailing list of promos? Do private school and universities tell you that their students die from alcohol overdose or do they point out the law school bound geniuses? I mean really. This is logic here, and people get mad, because they weren't told? Please, the last time I checked this is a company, not an offshoot of the missionaries. Why would they be that sincere? If you go into ANYTHING monetary thinking pipe dreams of sugar plums, you WILL get burned WHEREVER you sign up and sell, including MK and ANY other business/company establishment.
As to funding your own training, NO, you are wrong. Most companies will pay for training, but not for education--some subsidize--and MK does provide these benefits to consultants who mimic the income of a regular company employee. In the world of business, if you want to get ahead, there are workshops and outside evening courses, sometimes even free, that provide professionals with different topics to learn, which YOU CAN CHOOSE (just as you can with MK meetings) to attend as a way to better your performance in the work place. When you are a recruit, you do not pay for meetings. You are brought in as a guest. You are only asked to attend TWO meetings, to get trained, one in the product and one in sales. The rest of the meetings are strongly suggested as a way to remain informed and networked. People don't read, listen, or make their OWN decisions. This is why they fail and wait 2 years to decide that they have to blame the company and not themselves for jumping on a pipe dream and not seeing the realistic work involved.
June 05 - - -
< They trick people into thinking an opportunity is better than it is by pretending to be their friend and lying to them. Then they get more money out of them because they want so badly to believe they didn't throw away their original investment. Then they get people not to turn them either by guilting them, or making them feel too embarrased to admit what they were stupid enough to do. >
You seem like an intelligent person so HOW could ANYONE "get more money out of you?" Did they rob your credit card or did you KNOWINGLY use your OWN credit card to place orders? HOW were you tricked? Did you or did you not NEED to order product? If the answer is "no" than WHY did you order it??? Because YOU wanted so badly to believe YOU didn't throw away YOUR original investment? Was this a well thought out business decision or an emotional decision on your part?
< I wasn't forced into anything I did in Mary Kay. But my experience wasn't terribly different from the con job I described above. >
You weren't forced but yet you feel you were victimized (conned) by whom? MK headquarters, the director, the recruiter or ALL "3"? Were you told when you joined that you don't have to work, just kick back and sit back and enjoy the journey? What was it that MK offered and YOU wanted to begin with?
< It took almost two years before I was willing to admit to anyone what a huge mistake a stupidly made. Even then, I only did it out of a hope I could help keep others from making the same mistake. >
EVERYONE makes mistakes so what's the big deal? You return your product and you get 90% back and move forward. Why all the SELF inflicted GUILT? I've heard MANY times from top NSD's and the company that MK isn't for everyone. However, there are many "others" making money so how can YOU judge what's right for THEM based on YOUR personal feelings? That's like saying "one" size shoe fits all.
Katy C - 01 Jun 2005
> I know that not everyone can be a millionaire,
No, it isn't that not everyone can be a millionaire. The problem is that a very small percentage actually make more than they spend.
> You may get by as a writer, but you may not become a best-seller.
Getting by is better than most will do on a Mary Kay income.
> You may be a practicing doctor but never leave an affiliation to a clinic.
You can be affiliated with a clinic and still make a very good salary and support a family and have a nice house and a nice car and a stay at home spouse. Most people lose money rather than make it Mary Kay.
> You may freelance as a lawyer and never make partner.
Most lawyers make a decent salary whether they're partners or not. Very few people make a decent income from Mary Kay.
> I mean, the idea that everyone who represents MK is supposed to become
> a director is silly.
Sure it is. If you could make money without being a director, that'd be great. And probably a few people out there do. But most don't. Furthermore, many sales directors don't make enough money to support a family.
> You seem like an intelligent person so HOW could ANYONE "get more money out of you?"
I am an intelligent person, and I'm also an emotional one. Mary Kay training encourages us to take advantage of emotional decision-making, so I should not be surprised that my director did the same to her recruits. They frown on well thought out business decisions. If every new recruit stuck to well thought out business decisions, then no one would buy the high levels of inventory, and that would be bad for the sales directors, and for the company. Because no new consultant needs 3000 wholesale product.
As I already said, I spent more money because I continued to believe it could work. I wanted to believe it so badly I followed every suggestion of theirs that sounded at all reasonable, and most of their suggestions involved spending more money. By "theirs", I mean my sales director, and her director, and others in my unit. I didn't know until later, after I met many others like myself, that a lot of the bad advice they gave is nearly identical to what others in completely different parts of the country, different national areas got. They use the same words to manipulate us... they are learning those things somewhere, and I don't know for sure where. But when historians find documents telling the same stories, and pieces of the stories have the same wording, they normally assume that the documents had a common source.
> Did they rob your credit card ...
They wouldn't have needed to trick me if they were just going to rob me, would they? Ah, but you see? This is just the kind of thing that makes us afraid to speak up. I admitted I made a very stupid mistake, so somebody is getting kicks out of pointing out how monumentally stupid it was. Mmmm... that feels good. It's especially nice when they begin by saying "You seem like an intelligent person" before they point out how stupid I've been.
The thing is, the emotional games that were played on me, which led me toward making bad decisions are well studied to be effective tactics. It wasn't just me being stupid. It was me being manipulated, in the same way that many others are manipulated.
> EVERYONE makes mistakes so what's the big deal? You return your product
> and you get 90% back and move forward.
Not returning the product was probably my biggest mistake. If I had returned it, I wouldn't be allowed to be a consultant anymore. Not even if I wanted to do it for "personal use." I was well enough conditioned by many weekly Mary Kay meetings to think that would be a bad thing, and it was hard to let go. In addition, if I returned my product, my friend that recruited me would have to pay back the commissions she'd earned from it. I hated for that to happen.
However, even if I'd have returned the product I'd have lost money. Aside from the 10% you don't get back, you don't get reimbursed for samples or sales aids (sales slips, catalogs, supplies for skin care classes.) You don't get reimbursed for the starter kit if you've used it (which of course I did. I was working very hard at it.) You don't get reimbursed for the PCP gifts. Nor for the gift wrap and bags and baskets you bought to spruce up your products and make them sell better. Nor for the miles you put on your car going to appointments and meetings (not to mention the meetings themselves), nor for the extra money you ended up spending on carry-outs because you're so busy trying to "work your business" you don't have time to cook.
As it was, I made all the prefered mistakes, and who wouldn't have guilt about adding $8,000 to the family debt in their attempts to contribute to the family income? The reason I write about this is there are many others like me out there. I'd just like them to have their eyes wide open... like mine weren't.
RachelSuddeth - 01 Jun 2005
____________________________________________________________
June 6 2005
I've never heard of anyone working that hard and not reaping a profit, you are the first. As for samples and sales aids, I never spent a whole lot on them since I preferred doing actual facials and classes verses handing out a sample. Besides, it didn't take me long to figure out MK changed colors often so I never over spent in that area. As for gas and other expenses, you'd incur them even if you worked a 9-5 job so that's not an issue. As for the other expenses (including sales aids) you could write them off your taxes or donate it to a woman's shelter.
There is no reason to blame being programed for an obvious emotional decision on your part. Perhaps you never really looked at MK as a real business, if you did, your friends commission deduction for NOT returning $8,000 worth of inventory would not have been an issue. Your families needs should have over rided your concern for your friend. It would have also taught your friend a valuable lesson in business.
According to the edit information, the above post was written by KatyC
> I've never heard of anyone working that hard and not reaping a profit...
Katy, I'll bet there are many things you haven't heard of. If you spend your time with Mary Kay people, I'm sure none of them would dare to do anything as negative as mentioning they aren't making a profit. In fact, no one really enjoys talking about the mistakes they made. It's embarrassing. And we know that if we do, we risk having someone respond to us the way you have responded to me.
> There is no reason to blame being programed ...
I'm not posting here to lay blame. I'm posting to provide information that I hope will help others to avoid the mistakes I made.
I see no need to continue answering arguments I've already spoken to. However, if anyone is interested in knowing more about what I actually did in Mary Kay and why, please feel free to read my long story: http://www.thepinkingshears.org/PinkEyeStories/CONTENT%20PinkEYE%20STORIES/RachelsStory.htm
RachelSuddeth - 10 Jun 2005
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