The other thing I would like to add is that Mary Kay is wonderful business for women who are willing to do the work involved with this type of business. I know that MK Consultants will say: "Mary Kay is a business that almost any woman can do". I agree. The catch, however, is the "almost" portion of that statement. See, there are women who simply don't like direct sales and there are women who's personalities would do nothing more than drag down a unit or the consultants with in that unit. We certainly don't need that! I guess I'm saying this because it's very evident (especially from posts on this board) that you need to be extremely careful about recruiting personality types that will be encouraging and nice to work with. Never, never, never try and recruit every woman that you facial. It simply is a poor business plan to do so and you will only wind up harming MK's image because the nastier personalities who fail/move on will only turn around to bite you in the rear!
Just my 2 cents...
RebekahStellar - 05 Feb 2004
Laura here.......and who are YOU, to judge those 'nastier' personalities....Anyone who does not conform to the group thinking is labeled 'nasty'....ooooh my girl. I am getting mean here and I mean to.....you are judgemental, sarcastic and totally un-Mary Kay like and have tainted the image of MK all by yourself with your sarcasm and unwillingness to investigate things we have already investigated and your unwillingness to look outside the pink box.
When prospecting, we are told to talk to every one within 3 ft around us, then are told not to recruit the poor and pitiful, then are told to recruit 'up', meaning from our own status, then are told to look on the outside for 'sharp' women, all the time while being taught not to prejudge. All these instructions came from the SAME PERSON......so what is prospecting in MK supposed to be? Rebekah, why don't you tell us who you look for when prospecting???????? I know women in MK who were basically involved in men type labor jobs who cussed and the like and spat on pink women if you will, who have become awesome directors with all the integrity in the world, they were transformed, but I guess from what you say about recruiting, she would have been one of those 'nasty' personalities to stay away from?????
First, let me say that you make some good observations. Lots of people aren't anxious to do direct sales. Any kind of a system that encourages people to try and recruit everybody they bump into, on the premise that they "could use more money" and that their job keeps them "just over broke" is pretty much certain to create unhappiness on both the recruiter and the recruitee.
As to your claim that MK is not MLM, I'll ask for what I've asked anybody else that makes this claim of MLM: Point me at the official document from Mary Kay corporate that disclaims that the Mary Kay marketing plan is an MLM.
As for claims others have made that Mary Kay can't be MLM, because MLMs are illegal in Texas, this is 100% bogus. The relevant law in Texas prohibits "endless chain schemes":
"Endless chain" means any scheme for the disposal or distribution of property whereby a participant pays a valuable consideration for the chance to receive compensation for introducing one or more additional persons into participation in the scheme or for the chance to receive compensation when a person introduced by the participant introduces a new participant.
The distinction between an illegal "endless chain" (aka pyramid scheme) and a legal MLM is that in a pyramid scheme, the compensation earned includes a "recruiting fee" (regardless of what it may be called) that comes out of money paid by the new participant. In a legal MLM, the compensation is earned based on sales made by the new participant. Presumably, participants should be earning money from those sales.
EliMantel - 05 Feb 2004
Eli:
Thank you for the clarifying remarks, and
Rebekkah:
I'd like to suggest a third possibility to your proposed schematic analysis of "good company" v. "nastier personalities" - there are also recruited "nice personalities" - women (and, presumably, some men) who have actually previously demonstrated their skills in, and taste for, sales work - who hold MK in reasonable, or even high, regard, but who maintain serious and intelligent objections to certain aspects of the MK selling structure. This does not make these people likely to "drag down" a unit or other consultants - on the contrary, these are the sort of people who are committed, but with eyes open - not blindly devoted - and are observant, flexible, and willing to work at making their own business, as well as the the business of the larger company, better.
If there is something wrong with the MK selling structure and its contractual agreements with representatives - and at least one recent court decision says there assuredly is - (and by "wrong," I mean both non-compliant, or skating on the thin edge of compliance, with existing tax and regulatory requirements; and/or highly vulnerable to abuses in recruiting and unit management), then the best response to that news is not a blind and emotional defense of the company whilst shooting the messenger, but a willingness to cooperate in change, revision, and improvement.
There is no structure so good it cannot bear some improvement: If the basic MK structure is sound, let it become better; if it is in any way unsound, let it be made sound.
Such a view hardly bespeaks a nasty personality or dark motive.
Bunny Watson - 05 Feb 2004
Rebekkah......Laura Ryan here.......question....I would like to know how long you've been in MK and what your fantastic sales are......then I'd like you to type in the words mary kay mlm on google and write back, on this post what you find out....not rocket science there girlfriend.....seems like there are some 'official websites'...I think that when you have several layers of management all making commissions off of the bottom layers, that definitely defines a multi-level something or other, or do you disagree there also?
Regarding MK not being a MLM/Networking company, and my assessment is not rocket science either.....picture 1,000,000 consultants. Mk's sales force. Then picture Senior Consultants, Team Leaders, DIQ's, Directors, Senior Directors, ESD's, EESD's, Nationals atop of those consultants, of course the farther to the top you go,the smaller the numbers are, directors being to the tune of 2% of the population of the sales force in MK (MK's figures given in 2003) Does a picture form in your mind as you imagine this scenario, maybe a form of a triangle??????
MK/MLM's are all about recruiting and they made us write a huge "R" on our foreheads at a conference.......bring people in, tell them to go into debt with 80% (MK's statistics) borrowing to do so, so they'll 'sell more'.....and once they go thru family, friends, co-workers they are in the stranger market and have tons of inventory left.
Many, many women in MK are unethical, yet maintain they 'earned this', thereby deceiving new consultants that THEY CAN DO THIS too. Unfortunately, unethical practices run rampid and I found myself doing the same, that's why I am out....I was ashamed at what I did and am still behooved that those who remain and consistently condone these secret practices can stand up in front of anyone preaching 'the dream'.......and that 'you can do this because they did it'.....well, once you find out, sure anyone can do that!
As I've said on my posts from #67 on, there are ethical, good women in this company who do not cheat to attain another level and hurray for them. However, Rebekkah (sp?), there is a dark side even in the most 'positive' women who remain continuing these practices. Who are they, who knows......my 'dream' was popped, it's taken me along time to get over my involvement.....my own choice, but learning that 'it is common' sickened me as much as I sickened myself for what I did.
The company does not condone such things, of course. However, these things occur leaving good women behooved at what really goes on and they choose to leave for many reasons. When I found these message boards, it became clear to me how much goes on in the name of pride and selfish ambition. Not all women in MK are Christians and it does not affect them, I guess.....however, as a MK consultant yourself, you need to be aware, fully aware, that these things occur and your sarcasm and ill nature may classify you as one of those MK women with whom we have a problem with. Rather than compassion and understanding and an open mind, you choose to label and basically tell those with an opinion to 'get out'. I read on the ivillage message board recently, where a director sent a consultant an email as an invitation to take her negative attitude and 'leave' the group. We advised her to call corporate and that's what needs to happen more and more.
My reasons for posting on these boards were to let women know that as set up, the structure allows for tons of natural failure and I am peeved that women, who are supposed to represent the Golden Rule such as yourself, bash women who find they simply don't want to 'work the numbers' as we are told to do. What sets off the negativity in most women is reality, the reality that most women will be 'personal users' within a year and eventually drop off all together.
Amazingly enough, the company does not supply us with the statistics of who has left, who has returned product, etc., and that, to me is a deceptive practice. To lure women in with all the hype and the talk of dreams and lifestyles of the rich and famous citing this or that success of an nth of a percent of the sales force is deceiving. Please take some time to check out the MLM sites on the internet and the practices thereof, as well as what they preach and then write on here what you think about that.
Hi all, Bunny here:
Laura's points, I feel, are all very well taken; and, since she reiterates significant facts that can be known or verified by all - e.g. the similarities between MK and other MLM/networking organizations, and MK's unwillingness to distribute, even internally, normally published business numbers and analysis - and, as well, speaks from personal knowledge and experience, then, even if her remarks seem to describe something wholly unfamiliar to some, nevertheless, Laura, and others like her, should be heard, and heeded.
In re deceptive practices: when MK made the decision to retreat from the stock exchange and revert (from being publicly traded) to the prior condition of privately held company, this decision was, and continues to be, "spun" as having had a moral basis: the company (so it said/says) wanted the freedom to "carry on" in the inimitable and personal, "caring" style set by Mary Kay herself. Maybe. Or maybe the company realized that as a publicly traded company it would be compelled to regularly publish all those heretofore secret numbers and facts. And maybe the numbers and facts belie the "dream" - in a big way. If not - why not publish, and proudly?
Further, as a public company, MK would have been subject to far more rigorous regulatory and reporting requirements, and to much greater scrutiny by the agencies charged with enforcement of those requisite practices and norms. If there is something amiss, eventually it would be difficult to keep that under wraps - soon or late the house of cards, if such it is, would fall.
I'll just suggest that I can see no reason to expect less transparency of a company with whom I have a serious working relationship than I expect of my bank, any companies in which I invest, and/or my government. Why not get all the facts on the table and let each person make his or her own informed decision: how would that not be fair to all concerned?
I also wonder why, if a company and its representatives are, in fact, generally conducting business ethically and honestly, every and any heartfelt request for openness, and/or investigation of possible malfeasance, is met with attacks upon the personal character and motive of the inquirer, cankerous derision, and vitriol.
What's up with that?
Bunny Watson - 06 Feb 2004
MK is a member of the Direct Selling Association (web site dsa.org). According to information listed on the DSA web site for consumers under questions and answers, MLM is defined as:
Q. What is the difference between single level and multilevel compensation plans?
A. Single level compensation plan means a representative/distributor is compensated based solely on one's own product sales. In a multilevel compensation plan, representatives/distributors are compensated based not only on one's own product sales, but on the product sales of one's downline. Taken directly from http://www.dsa.org/selling/faq.htm#multilevel
According to the above information, MK is a MLM company. Is it not?
MaryWard? - 09 Feb 2004
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